########## ### ### ### ### #### ## ## ## ###### ### ### ## ## ## ## ## ### ### #### ## ## ## #### ### ### ## ## ## ## ## ## ### ### ##### ### ## ####### ## ##### #### #### ##### #### ## ## # # ## ## ## ## ##### # # #### ## ## ## ## # # ## ## ## ##### ###### # # ###### ## ## _______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @@@@@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @@@@@ @@@@@@ @@@@@ @ @ @@@@@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @@@@@ @ @@@@@@ @@@@@@ @ @ @ @@@@@@ /==========================================\ | CONTENTS: | |==========================================| |Introduction -----------------------ynori7| |Foreword ----------------------Zephyr_Pure| |Opinions ------------------Various Members| |Experiment -------------------------ynori7| \==========================================/ ============================================================== ====================Introduction by ynori7==================== ============================================================== Hello HBH. You may be curious about this newsletter since Newsletter #5 was just released not too long ago. This is a special edition of the Newsletter, and it doesn't contain the same type of articles that the Newsletter normally does. I have conducted an experiment at HBH over the last few months to find out whether or not there is any real difference in the treatment of new members and senior members. I have defined a "senior member" as a member who has been regularly visiting the site and voicing his/her opinions for a fair bit of time (I wont select an arbitrary length). Also, normally senior members have earned the respect of the rest of the group. To conduct this study, I have created a new account at HBH and I have been signing on regularly to observe how I am treated differently. I have noted any interesting results that I have discovered along the way, and I have timestamped them. Any additional comments have been marked "Addendum" along with a separate timestamp. These logs can be found later on in the "Experiment" section of this newsletter. For the completeness of the study, I have requested a short response to the following question from a select group of people: "What do you think is the difference between the treatment of new members and senior members on HBH, and why?" I have selected a diverse group of people and organized them into this list based upon the generation they belong to (ordered from oldest on top to newest on bottom): spyware, korg, MoshBat, COM, yours31f, Futility, elmiguel, p4plus2, stealth- These opinions are unedited aside from fixing simple typos, so they are all in the exact words of their authors. ============================================================== ====================Foreword by Zephyr_Pure=================== ============================================================== Forget what you know. The behavior of others in our community is wrong. YOUR behavior in our community is wrong. Forget what you know, and embrace the new. I was an effective leader in my time at HBH, and there was a simple revelation that made this possible. That revelation is simply this: "The only difference between new members and established members is experience." Disagree; I know you must. However, you must believe that the exception to the rule is not nearly as important as the widespread truth of this rule. The secret to empowering the community as a leader is to empower the majority, for which this current statement applies. Look at many of those you have previously chastised as not being "established" members, and you will realize that their qualities are lacking only in experience. I challenge you now to dwell on this. Established members command respect and demonstrate, through their own actions, how newer members are supposed to act. Are you worthy of respect? What have you done to earn it? Do you act as a responsible member of the community? Every member of HBH starts out the same way: lost, confused, and trying to fit in. We all started that way as well. It was the support of established members that kept us there. That is, for the times we made mistakes, there was at least one person ready to overlook them in the interest of welcoming new people to the community. THAT is how the community thrives. I could elaborate on my opinion regarding new members vs. established members (as I hinted at above), but that's not why I'm here. A handful of members (a few of which are the best current members, in my opinion) have submitted their thoughts on that very subject, and I am honored to have this chance to speak before them. Before I forget, though, I'm sure a few of you were expecting this... define ------ Some of you are aware of this account's true persona but, in case you missed the memo, define is my alternate account. It originally started as a testing account for testing non-admin functionality on HBH but, as time found my departure from the community, it found another purpose. define's new purpose was to show, to those members of the community that would be willing to see, that newer members were often treated unfairly... whether the new member's behavior was justified (or could be overlooked easily), or their shared knowledge was worthwhile, or any other number of redeeming qualities that an individual could show. As is so often said, the points do not matter, but the rank often empowers others to chastise these members unfairly. Truth be told, define was also present to test the mettle of the recently appointed admins at the time. I need not go into any further detail as to (1) why I felt this was necessary or, (2) why it proved to be a reasonable consideration. That is all. Enjoy the Newsletter. Zephyr_Pure ============================================================== =======================Opinions Section======================= ============================================================== COM's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- The difference in treatment between new and senior members on HBH has decreased a lot and is currently trivial at best. We don't really have senior members any more, most of them have left and many who are left or who would become senior members continue leaving. Currently there's only a handful left and the existence of the group that could be classified as senior is unstable. With most of the senior members leaving we're left with fewer members who have actually been around enough to at least somewhat know each other and the solidarity of the group that should be there for others, represent the site and be looked up to by the newer members weakens a lot. With what should be the core group of HBH in disarray, it's difficult for new members to know who to listen to, a senior member is tougher to recognize nowadays and their words weigh less than it used to do. Many newer members also see other users' names on a lot and think that it means that they're senior, even though they're largely inactive and neither accepted nor respected by those who actually are seniors. This can be an amusing concept of course, but in general it's just bad for those newer members. The boundaries are different for most people and it's mostly just the senior members who really know who another accepted senior member is. What is lacking is structure! We need a good, strong structure amongst the members of HBH and not a random mass of clueless users or users who think they're somehow a real member of HBH just because of some "Welcome dude" posts in an introduction thread. The thought amongst newer people, who've yet to be accepted amongst the few seniors floating about, that they are the same to HBH as those who have been there far longer and contributed far more also means that whenever the few guys amongst the senior members who know each other get into a dispute, they think of it as any other petty argument that they can meddle in. This really isn't a good thing as while those seniors who are fighting know each other, the newer member is an outsider to the whole argument and the result of acting as a superior to seniors who don't recognize you is plainly just a bad idea. Many times the argument could actually lead to something meaningful and a newer member might learn from it if he/she just wouldn't meddle, at other times it has to do with more personal experiences amongst the two users that the other user doesn't know anything of in which case meddling is just as bad. Saying that we need a structure amongst the members might sound bad to some, but what it means is simply that those who hang around, help and contribute enough to deserve to be called senior members, will reach that eventually. That's the point of its existence, a class where people roughly know each other and where members are known and accepted in the community and can be looked to for help by others. Those who are impatient and think they should just get respect as soon as they come around because of how superior they are probably don't belong anyhow, a little modesty can be a good thing, especially amongst those unknown. Currently there are hardly any differences as to many members, senior members hardly exist as they should, so their words barely weigh more. However, as most admins are senior members themselves and recognize the other ones as such, rules aren't as strict for senior members, unlike for newer ones. This means that more is acceptable for senior members, which in general is fine. It's how it should be amongst a group of people who have proven themselves and we know contribute to the site, as well as being amongst people who recognize them, it's basically a friendly inner circle. However, the downside of this can be that at times this is taken too far, or rather, it's not taken anywhere and action isn't taken when someone should clearly be set straight one way or another. Behavior such as this doesn't help to add some structure to the site nor strengthen the position of senior members. It also doesn't help when every person has at least one alternate account for no apparently good reason. There are some where it's understandable, but we can never build a good community if people hide behind alternate accounts (maybe even leave for it) and people don't stand up as those they are, especially when these are individuals who matter and could help a lot. This way people are not treated the same because they deserve it, but rather, because nobody knows otherwise or gives a shit. -------------------------------------------------------------- Elmiguel's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- For what I have seen on this site is that the new members are always handed the short end of the stick. Hazed on, put down, and sometimes forced out before they can even start. Few make it past the hazing process. For the senior members, some are treated respectfully and some are non-existent after of point. As for me, I seem to stick to a few good people on this site and try to help whoever I can when I can. I have no problems helping new comers if they are willing to learn new things and not be afraid to learn on their own as well. I myself always try new things and not afraid to ask for help. But I also try not to ask for hand me downs. This is what I see from a lot of new comers and I believe this is why they are treated so poorly sometimes. I also try not to claim or act like I am a big know-it-all and bash every new comer's questions and in the process making myself look like an ass. I see this a lot from a few senior members and frankly I think that is sad. I think the point I am trying to make is that the treatment on members is solely on those who make it difficult for others to learn and those who think that they can come in and demand that they be taught everything. Don't think I look down on members on HBH who make it difficult. Although I do feel like that sometimes that is unnecessary, I do enjoy a good laugh. I think it does make a good learning process for everyone. Some need to learn to read more and some need to learn better social skills. But getting back to my point, I do see that there is a difference between new members and senior members. I feel that this has been kind of the setting here for a while and I believe that it should tone it down a bit. Although I have no authority on how people treat other people, but I think that we could be better than the other communities out there. Yes, this site has its ups and down but let's not make this a place where people go just to harass other people for the fun of it like I see on other sites. We do have a strong community and that I see that a lot of people enjoy coming to HBH for the knowledge that they crave for and they get it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Futility's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- There's no question about it- new members are treated much differently than their senior counterparts. HBH, as a community, tends to overlook it when a regular member says or does something stupid. Hell, sometimes they even back his actions up- rising as one to pummel any who oppose the Senior's message. But if everyone is behind the Senior, then who dares disagree with him? Why, the new members, of course. The guys who have no idea that voicing their opinions will end up with them being bombarded from every angle. Guys who have blindly stumbled into the oven, if you will, because they felt like what they had to say was important. How dare they. I have seen countless incidents where a question proposed by one of the new guys has been shot down, spit on, chopped into about sixteen pieces, and thrown into a volcano, because it was deemed 'stupid'. Now I'm not here to argue that there's no such thing as a stupid question- there is. I'm also not going to go as far as to say that the majority of those destroyed questions weren't stupid- they were. But that doesn't excuse the Senior's behavior in denying all of them. Here's the kicker, though: whenever a Senior asks for help with something, no- whenever a senior asks for help with anything, that help will be supplied. Now you could argue that that's because he knows how to phrase things, or he's more knowledgeable and doesn't come off as a complete fool. But we all know the truth- it's because we've accepted this person as one of our own, and he, as such, is entitled to the vast library of information we've collected. Now I know you're going to disagree with me. I can taste your discontent with my harsh words. But imagine this- a senior member decides to switch out his popular name (and with it his fame) for something a little more... discreet. And what if he proposes a question on that discreet account. Will he get the same answer? Will he get the same effort put in by the community to help solve his problem? Let's take it a little further. What if he forgets about his popular account; ditches it altogether and only plays around on his new one. He's still the same person and, as such, still has the same general attitude and outlook on the going-ons of the site. But will he be treated the same? I guess the better question would be "Was he treated the same?" because this actually happened. And the answer? No, not in the very least. -------------------------------------------------------------- Korg's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- As we all know in an online community, or at school, work or anywhere a new person (member) must prove themselves worthy of being in "the crowd". That also holds water here on HBH. In my 4 yrs of being on HBH I've seen a lot of members come and go (Some good others not). When you first join the site, A lot of new members may post a subject that is not acceptable (IE: hacking a site) or they may try to flame another member, then the members who have been around for a while jump all over them. Being a new member anywhere can be tough, you can't just jump in and go to town, you must establish yourself as to what knowledge or skills you may have. From my standpoint a new member needs to be taught how things work and flow on HBH, resulting in verbal warnings via pm and if continues a warn level. Now the senior members SHOULD know how things work and keep flaming and off topic postings to a minimum. If a senior member flames another where it is justified I see it as no problem; if it's out of line then they deserve a warn level as they should know better. Just my two cents on new members to the site. I myself want all members to stick around and enjoy the site, so let's ALL stick to the forum and shoutbox rules and we'll all have a better time. korg -------------------------------------------------------------- MoshBat's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- Nothing, only people might actually notice you, not that getting noticed matters; it's a pain in the arse for the most part. You see, you'll always have something for someone to hate, but that's life, I'm afraid. I'm pretty sure I don't know you, yet I already hate you. I suggest you do likewise. Sometimes, you see names (often spawned during an "inspiration drought") you recognise, perhaps you even deceive yourself into thinking you like the person (that you can't even be sure exists) behind that name, else you know the name because that possibly non-existent person wasn't so nice to you. Now here's the important bit: it makes little difference how long you've been around these parts, you're nobody, mere text on a screen that can be ignored at will, ridiculed at will for a laugh or two. Vultures, Harpies and of course, prey. Just hope you're not the latter. -------------------------------------------------------------- p4plus2's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- The experience of new members at HellBoundHackers for the most part is relentless and unforgiving, not to say that this is always the case. A large majority of the time members who have been on this site longer and have more respect take their experiences for granted. A trend begins to appear as new members age that they begin to imitate what senior members are doing, which usually targets newer members. A common problem is new members are quickly denounced as skids when in all reality some new members do not even know what that means, as they are here to learn and start their journey. When a user makes their first post there is no need to burn them because they made simplistic mistakes(or even large ones), as is a common practice amongst several senior members. Some senior members however are genuinely helpful and encourage learning without harsh methods, such as "testing the newcomer via flaming". New members also have a predictibility where they attempt to get on the good side of somebody that is of higher stature than they are. Regardless of length spent at HBH however, one unignorable constant is that of large amounts of useless off-topic posts which give many members a rather demoted level of maturity. -------------------------------------------------------------- spyware's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- I am of the opinion that there is no magical boundary between "new" people and "senior" people. There's just idiots and not-idiots, and the idiots tend to leave quicker. They leave probably because they feel intimidated by the community/a part of the community, or they're just simply giving up, or moving to a different kind of website. Being a "senior" (whatever that means) doesn't imply you are smart, and being "new" doesn't imply that you are stupid. What it means is just what it means; senior members have spent a lot of time on HBH, and new members didn't (yet). I think you should treat people on their experience, intelligence and willingness to learn (and a shitload of other things), I don't treat members on "seniority", that's just bullocks. -------------------------------------------------------------- yours31f's Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- When you come to HBH, you expect: a friendly environment, intuitive answers, and learning challenges. What you may first perceive is something quite different. As a new member, you have to follow a very strict set of instructions in order to receive any answer at all. 1) Use google thoroughly. 2) Check the forums for anything pertaining to your question. 3) Use common sense. 4) Make a thread, that is grammatically correct, and makes sense. As a senior member, you are expected to know these unwritten rules. If not, you will be flamed at some point. As a new member, you must be able to take critique, and take flames. If you are new, you are not allowed the same amenities as a senior member. Such as: Flaming, Replying with "Use google", and posting opinions. -------------------------------------------------------------- stealth-'s Opinion -------------------------------------------------------------- I think there are many differences between senior and new members in the hbh community. Some are more obvious than others, but when you look for them they are numerous. Each senior member, of course, treats the new members in their own specific way, however I've noticed the majority of the new members treat everyone else the same way: respectful, agreeing, attempt to avoid conflict, etc, etc. Why is that? In my opinion, that would be because they are trying to make a good appearance. They think the senior members treat HBH like an elite "club", that to get respect in you must be respectful, agreeing, keep your mouth shut in case you might be wrong, and avoid conflict with the senior members. As they get more comfortable, however, they generally start letting out their real opinions and disagreements with other users and so on. For the most part however, this is unecessary. Most of the users, I've noticed (with the exception of Moshbat ), are very happy to help in any way possible, even when the question is poorly phrased, rude, and so on. I think the most obvious differences is that the new members feel the need to keep to themselves and be as passive as possible, to avoid getting verbally attacked and getting a bad reputation. However, I think 90% of this is pointless, and that would be why, in my opinion, a lot of the people who join don't want to post on the forums and get involved. Like I said, this is just my two cents. I'm not saying this is a problem, or that it can be fixed, I'm just stating how I think this whole "initiation phase" works. -------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================== ====================Experiment by ynori7====================== ============================================================== Oct 2, 2009 - Purpose & Hypothesis The purpose of this experiment is to see the community from the eyes of one whose reputation does not precede him. As ynori7, I can say certain things and make certain accusations and others will back me up or let me get away with it because they know me, because I'm their senior, or out of respect. The idea is that we should all be held to the same standard. Earlier than 200 BC, Chinese legalists proposed that the laws should be executed equally, regardless of social standing. This is a strongly believed concept since it is still recognized today. However, here on HBH I suspect it is not. The intent is to find out what factors influence senior members of HBH to flame and mistreat new members, whether it be a general dislike for new people or some other traits/actions. Procedure: Oct 12, 2009 I believe I've developed a promising character. I've differentiated him from myself enough to prevent immediate suspicion, but I've left enough similarities that I shouldn't have too much difficulty being him. I've chosen the name Apophis (the Greek name for the ancient Egyptian demon Apep) because it bears no similarity to anything ynori7 has named in the past, plus it's a relatively memorable name. The only further difficulty will be preventing some of those who know me well from noticing a similarity between Apophis's and ynori7's ways of thinking. I see three options: 1. Avoid contact with these people as Apophis. This may prove unrealistic since they are regulars. 2. Initiate contact and form a relationship with them. This may serve my purpose since they will be inclined to dismiss any suspicions they later develop if they think they know Apophis. 3. Carry on normally neither ignoring them nor pursuing them. Less gain than number 2, but less likely to backfire. More realistic than number 1. Addendum(written - 11/23/09): In order to further remove potential suspicion I've decided to occasionally have Apophis and ynori7 sign on at the same time, and they will occasionally interact with each other. In order to ensure that I don't get the two profiles confused when they are both signed on at the same time, I've made sure I use a different HBH theme for Apophis than for ynori7 so I can easily tell them apart by appearance. Oct 13, 2009 It seems I've made the mistake of not making any of the mistakes that new members commonly make. It wont be an accurate experiment if I don't include some of the commonalities that fuel anger towards new members. Most common mistakes that get new members flamed: 1. Assertion that more points is a result of more skill. 2. Asking extremely common questions such as "what language should I learn?" 3. Asking for challenge help in the shoutbox. 4. Asking for help hacking a site. I'll have to see if I can work a few of those in. Oct 16, 2009 First results: Context-"http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/wayneshearscom_has_forums -19-15119_0.html" Korg sent to me a PM in response and I replied. Here is the conversation: Korg: Hey ynori7 nice job on flaming there, I was just about to warn that account when I saw your e-mail and ip. Secrets cool with me! Ynori7: You were going to warn which account? This one? Yeah, I'm conducting a little experiment to see how best to go about improving the community. Korg:You improve the community by getting rid of spyware and moshbat. Keep flaming them it's funny now. Ynori7: So you were going to warn Apophis for flaming in the forums? That brings up two interesting questions: 1. Why? 2. Why does my being ynori7 change anything? Korg: I was going to send Apophis a pm as to posting in the forums, IE: your shut the fuck up stuff, flaming those two. Seems kinda worthless to send a verbal warn to someone who knows the forums right. New members are usually gun shy to the forums, that's what made me think it was an old member with a new account. I have alias accounts I took years ago that I use also just to see how people react to other members. Ynori7: So it's okay for old members to flame moshbat and spyware but not a new member? Korg: You sure like to turn things around don't you. I was going to warn the new member for further knowledge I think you know better. Right. Besides I want to see thier reaction to being flamed. Ynori7: I'm turning things around like this to use as supporting data for my experiment. Of course there is expected to be some degree more tolerance for old members, but my point is that they could use some "further knowledge" every now and again just as much as a new member. You were one of the prime targets of the experiment because of your unique status of being the only admin who actually moderates. Of course I forgot about the IP logs. So I guess now I'll have to continue testing spyware and moshbat along with a few others. Korg: I have a higher tolerance with senior members and expect them to tell people to stop being an ass or shut the fuck up when needed, I don't or will not play favorites if you know what I mean. I like to be fair and not a dick. Ynori7: Right, I understand that. But I tell people to quit being assholes all the time as ynori7 and there's no problem; never once have I been warned in any fashion. I do that once as Apophis and there's suddenly a need to be warned. That's just what I observed, and that's what I predicted would happen. This result supports my hypothesis around this experiment (that senior members are not held to the same standards as the rest of the community). All I'm saying is that if the situation warrants a "shut the fuck up", it shouldn't matter who delivers it. Korg: I agree but I think new people need to earn the respect of other members before getting arrogant in the forums. That's how I've always felt. When I first joined even if I had a valid point I would get my ass kicked in the forums and I knew a hell of a lot more than the senior members back then. Once we know that someone has some knowledge and not a shithead skid they become more accepted. Ynori7: Problem is that we scare away a lot of members with potential that way. ----------------------------- Second result: Context - we were talking about an argument that COM attempted to put an end to. ynori7: heh. i recall apophis doing that just recently though. they didn't listen too well though COM: that's cus Apophis presents himself as a stuck up git who's been around forever and knows everything ynori7: true COM: pissed me off a bit in the shoutbox today when he criticized felix's English ynori7: why's that? guy mispelled near COM: granted he was right, but I reckon someone who has the reading comprehension of a fishasshole should shut his mouth COM: I feel it fair enough for people to take me on in an argument when there's a misunderstanding or they at least know some shit COM: but when they take me on for something I haven't said and then criticize my analogy saying it's shit when it fucking was perfect, that just pisses me off -[note: context was "http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/viewthread.php? forum_id=19&thread_id=15106#140224"] ynori7: i suppose. but that felix guy is kind of annoying in general COM: oh yeah At this point I'd like to point out that I've made no attempt to differentiate the way Apophis speaks from how ynori7 does aside from occasionally feigning ignorance about certain subjects. Addendum(12/03/09): The only person who really knows me well enough to potentially see through Apophis is COM, and it seems I have successfully gotten him to be blinded by the first opinion he formed. Because of this my experiment should be safe even if I accidentally let something slip. Oct 26, 2009 "http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/off_topic_posting_idea-19-15144_0 .html#post_140821" Oct 27, 2009 This morning when I tried to sign on as Apophis, my password didn't work. I checked Apophis's email and he had ten "new password request" emails from HBH. Looks like somebody tried to hack my account. Oct 28, 2009 "http://www.hellboundhackers.org/forum/banning_rules-5-15149_0.html# post_140906" Oct 29, 2009 The experiment wont be terribly effective if everybody hates Apophis. I know a way to restore a bit of positive opinion from COM, so I'll try that. Addendum(11/30/09): apparently that failed because COM still hates Apophis. Addendum(12/09/09): My attempt involved Apophis asking COM for help with a challenge and then graciously thanking him. And I note that COM was perfectly civil in his reply. Nov 6, 2009 I don't know whether this means anything, but I guess I'll take note of it... PM Conversation between Apophis and Zeke tAh FreKe: subject: Very Serious .. Zeke: I have a very serious question .. me: Okay...what is it? Zeke: PwNed. me: I don't get it. Zeke: it fuck fucked and fucking me: What the hell are you talking about? Nov, 21 2009 After talking with Zephyr_Pure about this experiment he gave me an interesting suggestion. He suggested to have members of HBH write a short bit about their opinions on the question: "What do you think is the difference between the treatment of new members and senior members on HBH, and why?" That way when this experiment is presented to the community it will be presented alongside people's opinions and they can see how what they say contrasts with what they do. I think this will have a much greater impact. I will try to gather opinions from a broad range of people to get some diversity in perspective. Nov, 22 2009 I was talking to COM about whose opinions to gather for the publishing of this experiment (he did not know the details about the experiment or what I was doing): COM: I'd say apophis as he's been doing his best to get noticed COM: if it weren't that he bugs the fuck outta me ynori7: i thought about asking him. haven't decided yet COM: as said, I don't like the guy COM: though I guess that's irrelevant Nov 24,2009 Talking to COM about something Apophis said in the shoutbox: COM: though his weak grasp on English reading comprehension should've tipped me off ynori7: wow, you really like to cling to that don't you COM: it bugs the fuck outta me how someone can be that stupid COM: well, I mean I understand people being that stupid, but acting the way he does while being so dead wrong COM: fuck it annoys me yeah ynori7: meh, he hasn't really done anything to bother me so far COM: it's more the fact that he just strolls in, acts as if his words have as much weight as the most respected member's, acts smart and then displays such fucking stupidity ynori7: meh, i've seen some decent helpful posts and i've seen some poor ones COM: yes, which is why it bugs me ynori7: honestly i've seen the same of spyware as well COM: if he'd just make poor posts then he'd just be another idiot ynori7: ah COM: this way he's got a basis to stand on, yet even with that he's a drunk stumbling around COM: and he fucking shouldn't be Dec 7, 2009 This wasn't directly related to my experiment, but it's something that I observed today in the shoutbox that is relevant: regedit- plz checkout my new post and let me know how it is. under Programing Compromise- No, get the fuçk out. You're crossposting and spamming the place. regedit- @Compromise: wtf crossposting.. FYI im a sysAdmin and this is part of what I do at work you n00b. that was an email i sent out to my team what I wanted to share wit regedit- @Compromise: I cant belive you have an hbh rank as Newbie and trying to flame others. It took time to make that post! this Who is the admin on dutiy? I've been her Conclusion: Dec. 8 2009 It seems to me that I chose a time to conduct this experiment when the primary aggressors of HBH are currently in their less aggressive phases. However, I believe I have still found a pattern indicating that new members of HBH are treated differently than senior members. A common mistake made by new members is the assumption that rank indicates skill or knowledge. This assumption is of course a poor one, and senior members often attack people for making it. However, I've found that many of these senior members are hypocrites in this area. Many members make the reverse assumption that lack of points indicates lack of skill or knowledge. This is a logical fallacy called "appeal to ignorance". Nevertheless, it is still common. Some of the data here can't serve as evidence towards poor treatment of new members, but it can serve as evidence of an automatic negative opinion towards them. The conversations with COM for example. He never displayed any of his negative opinions publicly and he was perfectly civil when Apophis asked him for help, but the question I want to pose to everybody is, "why do we naturally look down upon new members?" It's not just here at HBH; I've seen it in other communities as well (virtual and in the real world). And I wont claim to have clean hands in this matter either. But the next time you find yourself forming opinions about new members and flaming them I want you all to ask yourselves what you've based your opinions on and why you've formed them the way you have. ============================================================== ####### ## ## ## ## ## ## ##### ## ## ## ## ## ## #### ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## #### ### ### ##