s$ .d""b. impulse reality press no. 143 [-- $$ $$ $$ -- ------------------------------------------------------ --] $$ $$ "Total Fucking Buddhist, Man! Part II" $$ $$ written by linear & mogel $$ $$ released 9/7/01 [-- $$ $$ ------ ------------------------------------------------------ --] $$ $$ I recently came across this log file while searching for some worth while IR submissions I had lost. I had this conversation with mogel (of HOE Ezine fame) shortly after reading his (brief) explaination of early Buddhism history and philosophy. If you would like to check the original text out, visit http://www.hoe.nu/mogel/buddhism.txt This log is incredibly long, and I am publishing it with out consent from mogel, because he sucks. It should be noted that this is a very simplified explaination of ideas, so idiots like me can understand. I'm not sure when this took place, but I would estimate 6 months ago. This file is part two in a two part series. Part one is another conversation I had with mogel about his text, which took place I would guess 3 months before this one. -oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo- its linear: Oh, i had a question on something in your Buddhist text... I am Mogel: sure, fire away, spanky its linear: Okay, so the "Mind-only" school... i don't get the concept... they're saying that everything only exists in my head... so like, does that mean I'm making everything up? Are you not existing right now? are you my imagination? I don't get it!$% its linear: C'mon hotshot!@$# 5K3WL M3!!!@#$% I am Mogel: thinking I am Mogel: it's been a while since i've thought about it I am Mogel: in a way, yeah I am Mogel: i mean, that's a very simplistic way to view it, of course--just like the western philosopher Berkeley I am Mogel: they said some similar things I am Mogel: but the -root- of the thinking is this: I am Mogel: it is impossible for us, as human beings, to bypass our perspective of the world I am Mogel: like the idea of a "paradigm", that being a 'filter' for which we process all information and sensory information, we are constantly tainting what we absorb (if we even absorb it) in the ways we want I am Mogel: in a way, this is just someone saying "it's all subjective!!" I am Mogel: but it's mroe than that, because the Mind Only school suggested that since we have the knowledge of how profoundly our psyche influences what we see and understand around us, I am Mogel: we also have the ability to *control* them profoundly I am Mogel: and if we study the roots of why and how we are so powerful influenced, we have a certain kind of power and understanding of human psychology that is profound its linear: so it's not saying that everything's our imagination, just saying that we -perceive- it differently? I am Mogel: what's the difference? I am Mogel: while you can rangle off tons of "we as humans try to understand objective truth" arguments, essentially nothing can be *truly* proven in our world I am Mogel: every scientific law, even mathematics, is based on axioms and assumptions I am Mogel: the foundation of what we think is "true" is still basically a well organized lie its linear: well, uh... in one _stuff_ exist, just in an uncertain state, in the other, stuff doesn't exist... I am Mogel: practically speaking, does it matter? its linear: true, but everything's still not a figment of my imagination!! I am Mogel: if it exists or not, if it effects us and we effect it to the same degree, it really doesn't matter I am Mogel: so, if nothing is -true-, i think it is safe to say that we are living in a world of probable un-truths I am Mogel: or, perhaps, everything is potentially true I am Mogel: why not, after all? its linear: what's the point of having compassion of everything around me if it is just a bunch of foolishness my ego made up?@ I am Mogel: that's a great question--there is not I am Mogel: there is no requirement for compassion in all of Buddihsm I am Mogel: only certain types, like Tibetan I am Mogel: most Buddhisms will say that compassion is part of "the middle way", and therefore a logically good way to behave I am Mogel: but (A) it's not necessarily good for EVERY situation, (B) the original spirit of buddism is DIY-ethics, meaning preaching 'compassion' is dependent on who you you're getting orders from its linear: Then why should i even care about buddhism? My mind made it up anyway !! I am Mogel: good question I am Mogel: why don't you answer it? I am Mogel: play the other side its linear: I shouldn't. I am Mogel: then don't. I am Mogel: that seems simple. I am Mogel: nobody ever said that the mind-only school was correct--they do not have any modern followers, you know. I am Mogel: they are only interesting because they were one of the many early mahayana evolutions of thought--they made amazing contributions to how eastern thought regards psychology its linear: Well it's dumb. If they believed what they were teaching, then they wouldn't have started the school to teach figments of their imagination! I am Mogel: i think they were taking some of the buddhist ideas to their logical extreme I am Mogel: which is a slightly UN-buddhist thing to do I am Mogel: anyway, nobody knows -for sure- how much of this 'ego created it all' business was seriously regarded by them I am Mogel: it's possible they were just using flowerly language and the meaning was less literal I am Mogel: it was quite common for the time and the writings of that time its linear: Well they need to get their hippy-asses kicked. I am Mogel: some of the parables of buddha written during that time are embarassing to read, as a buddhist I am Mogel: because they're so corny and exaggerated and ultimately irrelevant I am Mogel: as you know, buddhism has a far more diverse and intellectually rich history than christianity I am Mogel: a scan through the sects and ideas is a lot more dynamic than "which way do we drop the baby in the water?" its linear: I got the Lotus Sutra translated by that guy you (or your parents or whatever) reccomended... it's odd, it refers too much to gods and dragons and sillyness. I am Mogel: there are no literal "gods" in buddhism I am Mogel: and any mahayana student will tell you that I am Mogel: the term, used in the lotus sutra, is used to describe the various qualities of the 'mystic law', cause and effect I am Mogel: to be honest, i haven't read the lotus sutra in like 4-5 years I am Mogel: because i like the -ideas- more than the text itself its linear: Well, I know enough not to take it literally, it's just annoying. I am Mogel: but it's intended to be philosophical and poetic and interperated, not mystical or supersticious its linear: And the different buddha "realms" is retarded I am Mogel: well, keep in mind it was made in a time when people didn't write things like this down I am Mogel: so it passed through quite a lot of mouths I am Mogel: in fact, there's many sutras that were made because of all the disputes of what the "REAL TRUTH" was I am Mogel: another reason why the ideas superseed the text I am Mogel: ahaha, well, consider it something you can tell others, at the very least I am Mogel: there's plenty of people in your lifestyle and world who will never read that book I am Mogel: so you're ONE UP on 'em I am Mogel: if you actually finish it, i'll recommend you 2-3 other books full of interpretations and thoughts on it I am Mogel: (that are pretty good) its linear: Allright, I'll start reading it more. You should really rewrite or at least update that buddhism.txt sometime... I'm sure you know a lot more and could make it a lot better. its linear: I should write my own god damn Sutra. its linear: You never told me how YOU meditate (I don't mean how one meditates in general, but you're personal way, since you've said before you have a more active way of meditation) I am Mogel: my buddhism, Soka Gakkai, is an organization of people focused on embracing diversity and education for world peace I am Mogel: so it's more of an 'organization', almost activist, than a religion I am Mogel: but the practice of buddism is an active form of meditation I am Mogel: the difference of active and passive is that you're more immediately focused its linear: are you talking about mindfullness and crap? I am Mogel: it's a lot better for people who have busy lives and can't spend hours and hours every day staring at a wall or other nonsense that belongs with monks I am Mogel: 'mindfulness' is just a concept I am Mogel: being Mindful is simply being aware of how you are balanced with the ideas of buddhism in your own life I am Mogel: so that's part of it, sure, but that's part of everything (or should be!!) I am Mogel: Anyway: I am Mogel: I sit somewhere, I have my back straight, act attentive, and I chant the words "Nam Myo-ho Ren-ge Kyo". while that sounds silly, i guess, it acts as a wonderful mantra (presuming you know what the words mean)...and after doing this for about 5 minutes every day, it takes very little time before you see genuine changes in your life I am Mogel: or at least your attitude I am Mogel: anyway: chanting in this way, actively thinking about your life, is a discipline I am Mogel: essentially it's just the symbolic act of Actually Trying To Do Something, which a lot of people never do its linear: so what's the chant mean, and how do you say it? like, phonetically spell it out for me, because i'm dumb I am Mogel: it literally means "i devote myself through these words to the mystic law of cause effect' I am Mogel: but each character (there's 5 ancient sanskrit characters that make the expression) has a very long explaination its linear: i see I am Mogel: anyhow: PHONETICALLY, it's "Nam - MyoHo - Ren Gyay - Kyo" I am Mogel: which is still hard to say, i guess I am Mogel: i'll say it on the phone sometime for you its linear: Right on. If another conference ever starts soon. Maybe i should call your ass and bug you at home again sometime. I am Mogel: it sounds kind of silly in words, but i say with 100% seriousness that chanting this every day, while being focused, has changed my life for the better in numerous ways I am Mogel: it's a better way to spend 5 minutes than a whole lot of other things, that's for sure I am Mogel: again, even a sketpical person must admit that the simple act of paying attention and 'meditation' on one's own life is rarely bad I am Mogel: err skeptical its linear: do you say it the whole time you meditate or just at the begining yo control your mind until you get into samadhi or whatever the fuck deep meditation is called I am Mogel: ahahah, i say it over and over again I am Mogel: because I am Mogel: what happens is I am Mogel: you eventually drift off, even while you say it I am Mogel: and you start to think about stuff uncontrollably, once you're in the habit its linear: and you only do it for 5mins anyway I am Mogel: and you're not completely aware that you're even saying the words, as you say them I am Mogel: it's kinda wacky its linear: I think that's just because you're a JUNKY! I am Mogel: well, 5 minutes is the recommended starting time for people, becaquse it's hard for people to start daily habits I am Mogel: i know some wackos who will chant for like an hour a day, but that's hard to do if you have a life its linear: haha its linear: I think i'm going to start a buddhist indie-rock band and call it Zendie... it'll counteract all that christian-punk/rock/crap music out there!! its linear: is there any soka gokkai places around where i am... or rather, how could i find out if there are any around here? I am Mogel: i could find out for you tomorrow I am Mogel: (making note to self) I am Mogel: what's your town again? its linear: cool, thanks.... Upland California... some near-by places are Claremont, Ontario, Montclair.... It's in the Inland Empire (San Bernadino County) I am Mogel: http://www.sgi.org has lots of information and general crap I am Mogel: so you can read about it there I am Mogel: it's an extremely friendly group of people, though, and they are not particularly "WE WILL CONVERT YOU!!!" in spirit I am Mogel: so there's not much to worry about its linear: they don't have a bunch of wacky (anal) buddhist ethics or anything at these places, do they? like, i'm not going to have to walk counter-clockwise around the room while people stare at me weird and feed me freaky punch? I am Mogel: ahahah, no, nothing like that I am Mogel: with a tiny number of japanese throwbacks (that are being dismantled every year), it's mostly a very culturally diverse group--people from many ages, races, etc I am Mogel: ahaha, these are very american people I am Mogel: they'll probably feel like -you're- staring at them weird, rather than them at you its linear: I should bring a bible and tell them that they all need God! its linear: Anyway, I'll let you go now since you wanted to go earlier.... Sorry... Have fun at work tomorrow!@!!@ -oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo-oOo- Hope, you uh, learned something. [-------------------------------------------------------------------------] the clever thing to do here would be to put some sort of copyright. no. http://www.phonelosers.net/ir [-------------------------------------------------------------------------]