[01:12:18] Blacklotis: Ok, so just to get everyone on the same page here, Im going to be discussing home security
[01:12:37] Blacklotis: and like any subject it's best to know some background
[01:12:56] Blacklotis: origionally, security consisted of the following: a guy standing in front of your door, holding a weapon of some sort
[01:13:12] Blacklotis: which has quite a few downfalls, one being that its quite expensive
[01:13:37] Blacklotis: so at some point, I have absolutally no idea when, someone came up with the bright idea of remotly monitoring doors and windows
[01:13:57] Blacklotis: which presented a problem as they had to now devise a means to do so
[01:14:08] Blacklotis: ok, so now we are on the same page
[01:14:12] Blacklotis: lets jump right in
[01:14:44] Blacklotis: the method they came up with was pretty simple, a 2 conductor wire (2 wires in one jacket) is run from said door/window
[01:14:56] Blacklotis: to a central location, which monitors the sensors
[01:15:17] Blacklotis: on each door/window, they placed what we call in the busisness "contacts"
[01:15:22] Blacklotis: which is a fancy term for magnetic switch
[01:15:31] Blacklotis: ok, any questions so far?
[01:15:47] Blacklotis: no?
[01:15:50] Ch4r: nope
[01:15:54] Blacklotis: alright lets plug on
[01:16:21] Blacklotis: im going to assume that some basic information on electronics is known, consisting of basic circuit design
[01:16:30] Blacklotis: you have the switch, power supply, and load
[01:16:46] Blacklotis: this created a continuious loop of current when the door/window is closed
[01:17:07] Blacklotis: so now lets just imagine that all af the contacts are looped into a board with lights
[01:17:17] Blacklotis: if you know where each wire goes you can simply name the lights
[01:17:24] Blacklotis: if a light turnes off, the door/window is open
[01:17:36] Blacklotis: and hence you have the basic idea behind how this is working
[01:17:46] Blacklotis: now to jump to a more realistic example
[01:18:00] Blacklotis: some problems start arising once you have a wire running to a location
[01:18:07] Blacklotis: what happens if someone were to tamper with the wire?
[01:18:12] Blacklotis: and tie the wires together?
[01:18:21] Blacklotis: wouldnt that bypass the door/window and let it be opened?
[01:18:28] Blacklotis: inded it would, but there is a solution!
[01:18:52] Blacklotis: using a certain resistance value (determined by the type of alarm) you can place a resistor at the end of the wire near the contact
[01:18:59] Blacklotis: creating what we call a supervised loop
[01:19:20] Blacklotis: if you were to tie the wires together, you eliminate the resistance value, and it is if you have opened the door/window
[01:19:37] Blacklotis: alright, as far as doors and windows are concerned, and confusion?
[01:20:06] Ch4r: hold on, several people were IMing me >_<
[01:20:11] Blacklotis: ok
[01:20:22] Ch4r: ok, got it
[01:20:45] Blacklotis: alrighty
[01:20:56] Blacklotis: now what happens if someone wants to protect an open area?
[01:21:03] Blacklotis: where there are no doors or windows leading into it
[01:21:21] Blacklotis: well, another type of device, called a motion detector can be used
[01:21:39] Blacklotis: now, the same principle is used with motions
[01:21:53] Blacklotis: only they commonly run off a 4 conduction wire (4 wires in one jacket)
[01:22:05] Blacklotis: 2 being the power supply to the unit
[01:22:09] Blacklotis: and 2 being the common and not common
[01:22:14] mu-tiger: wait
[01:22:20] Blacklotis: yes?
[01:22:23] mu-tiger: does that mean there are two hot wires?
[01:22:33] Blacklotis: a positive and a negative yes
[01:22:43] Blacklotis: its all DC
[01:22:47] mu-tiger: ok, so the other two?
[01:22:49] Blacklotis: so tecnically there is only one hot wire
[01:22:55] Blacklotis: but you can think of it like that if it helps
[01:23:05] Blacklotis: DC = Direct current
[01:23:11] BananaFish: what do you mean by "common" and "not common"?
[01:23:12] Blacklotis: AC = Alternating current
[01:23:27] mu-tiger: no, that's what confused me
[01:23:35] mu-tiger: i think red, black, green
[01:23:44] Blacklotis: there is really no differance between the two at this point, you can think of one as input and one as output
[01:23:48] mu-tiger: hot, neg, ground
[01:24:11] Blacklotis: colors dont matter, but commonly red is (+), black is (-), yellow/white is not common, and green is common
[01:24:21] mu-tiger: ok
[01:24:25] mu-tiger: ty
[01:24:28] Blacklotis: everyone following so far?
[01:24:29] mu-tiger: been a while
[01:24:39] Blacklotis: no worries :)
[01:24:51] Blacklotis: alright, so now we know what the motion is running from
[01:24:59] Blacklotis: so how does it in fact detect motion?
[01:25:11] mu-tiger: a sensor
[01:25:14] mu-tiger: like a garage door
[01:25:17] mu-tiger: infrared
[01:25:20] Blacklotis: Im going to cover one type ofmotion, most commonly used in a home setting, keep in mind there are quite a number of differnt systems in place
[01:25:37] Blacklotis: like mu is guessing, one way is to use an infared beam
[01:25:57] Blacklotis: the device shoots beams at angles, usually every 5 deg or so
[01:26:11] Blacklotis: and, if something were to break any 2 beams, the device opens the circuit
[01:26:25] Blacklotis: giving it the ability to detect motion
[01:26:31] mu-tiger: what about mirrors?  does that really work?
[01:26:39] Blacklotis: thats an incredably basic example
[01:26:50] Blacklotis: there is much mroe going on behind the scenes
[01:27:06] Blacklotis: so no mirrors dont work with motions, because they use much more than beams
[01:27:24] Blacklotis: if we get time ill discuss more later, or maybe in the next lecture
[01:27:29] mu-tiger: i thought that seemed hollywood
[01:27:34] Blacklotis: purly
[01:27:53] Blacklotis: ok, so now we have defined how both motions and door/window sensors work
[01:28:00] Blacklotis: these can make up almost all of your basic alarms
[01:28:06] Blacklotis: with the exception of smoke detection
[01:28:26] mu-tiger: that's a different kind of sensor, tho
[01:28:33] Blacklotis: which works almost exactly like a motion, except there are no beams, only a smoke detection decive that opens the circuit if it detects smoke
[01:28:55] Blacklotis: now, we have all of our devices in place
[01:29:10] Blacklotis: all of our doors, windows, and open rooms are protected, as well as fire protection
[01:29:24] Blacklotis: so what happens when the alarm does go off?
[01:29:28] Blacklotis: as we all know
[01:29:32] Blacklotis: usually a siren sounds
[01:29:38] mu-tiger: a signal is transmitted, triggering an alarm
[01:29:43] Blacklotis: which is accurate, to sacre away the bad guys
[01:30:00] Blacklotis: the signal comes fromt the decive, which is breaking the continuous loop
[01:30:20] mu-tiger: hrm 
[01:30:24] mu-tiger: so theoretically
[01:30:33] mu-tiger: if you cut the wire that transmits the signal...
[01:30:39] Blacklotis: you trip the sensor
[01:30:55] mu-tiger: only on newer models, tho, right?
[01:30:55] Blacklotis: because it no longer has continuity (continuious current)
[01:31:08] mu-tiger: ah yeah
[01:31:09] Blacklotis: no, thats a basic fundimental of alarms
[01:31:10] mu-tiger: i see
[01:31:14] Blacklotis: ok
[01:31:14] mu-tiger: alright
[01:31:15] Blacklotis: all caught up?
[01:31:20] mu-tiger: yes, ty
[01:31:21] BananaFish: presumably this connection is either protected from tampering or also a supervised loop?
[01:31:34] Blacklotis: every wire is a supervised loop
[01:31:42] BananaFish: ok
[01:31:42] Blacklotis: but, what good would this all be if no one was aware that it was happening?
[01:32:03] Blacklotis: so the alarm or "panel" as we call it, has to be able to call someone
[01:32:17] Blacklotis: which is where a monitoring station comes into play
[01:32:20] mu-tiger: hrm
[01:32:39] Blacklotis: a monitoring station, has all of the panels in one large database, and is notified when any one of them sends a signal
[01:32:54] Blacklotis: as you can image, this is a HUGE undertaking and can take up an entier lecture on its own
[01:33:13] Blacklotis: so for now just consider it a black box, they get a signal, they send the police
[01:33:16] mu-tiger: so
[01:33:23] mu-tiger: is this like a radio signal?
[01:33:37] Blacklotis: it can be
[01:33:42] Blacklotis: but normal alarms use a phone line
[01:33:49] Blacklotis: which is where im leading into next
[01:33:53] BananaFish: is this usually triggered actively like you suggest?
[01:33:54] mu-tiger: sorry
[01:34:01] Blacklotis: no you asked a good question
[01:34:17] BananaFish: or passively (eg. hq sends police if *no* signal received within some interval)?
[01:34:29] mu-tiger: well, i would think
[01:34:37] Blacklotis: well, something could be set up in that instance
[01:34:43] mu-tiger: if it is wired to the phone, that if the phone line is tampered with
[01:34:46] Blacklotis: but its more of a job specific event
[01:34:52] Blacklotis: smoke detectors have something in place like that
[01:34:53] mu-tiger: it would also disrupt continuity?
[01:35:02] Blacklotis: because they are considered life saving devices
[01:35:06] Blacklotis: they have to report once a month
[01:35:18] Blacklotis: ok, back to phones
[01:35:33] Blacklotis: now, your alarm has to have a phone line
[01:35:46] Blacklotis: is everyone familiar with the basic workings of phone systems?
[01:35:49] Blacklotis: a tip and a ring?
[01:35:58] mu-tiger: sorta =/
[01:36:14] Blacklotis: ok, your phone comes in from the phone company on 2 wires
[01:36:19] Blacklotis: one being a tip, one being a ring
[01:36:25] Blacklotis: when both are connected you have your dial tone
[01:37:00] Blacklotis: so, your phone is what you would call a normally open circuit
[01:37:10] Blacklotis: there is not any current in the wires unless they are being used
[01:37:17] Blacklotis: verses an alarm which is normally closed
[01:37:26] Blacklotis: there is always current in the wires, until one is opened
[01:37:44] mu-tiger: hrm
[01:38:04] Blacklotis: alright, so now we need to get a phone line to our alarm
[01:38:17] Blacklotis: if you ahve ever seen a phone, it normally has 4 wires inside the phone cord
[01:38:18] mu-tiger: tip?
[01:38:38] Blacklotis: red and green usually
[01:38:45] Blacklotis: or blue and blue-white
[01:38:48] mu-tiger: yeah
[01:39:04] Blacklotis: ok, now there is a reason that phones normally have 4 wires
[01:39:09] Blacklotis: one pair being the incomming
[01:39:13] Blacklotis: one pair being the outgoing
[01:39:20] Blacklotis: we need to have the same setup for the alarm
[01:39:30] Blacklotis: so we run another 4 conductor to our phone box
[01:39:43] Blacklotis: now our alarm has phones hooked up to it
[01:39:54] Blacklotis: so the alarm goes off, it calls the monitoring station
[01:40:17] Blacklotis: but what happens if your on the phone when the panel wants to use the phone
[01:40:25] Jamrun9: kicks you off
[01:40:30] mu-tiger: it interrupts you
[01:40:33] Blacklotis: im sure we have all picked up a reciever when someone was talking
[01:40:36] Blacklotis: indeed it does
[01:40:41] Blacklotis: this is called line seizure
[01:40:46] Blacklotis: how does it work you may ask?
[01:40:58] Blacklotis: well, again going back to some basic electronics
[01:41:06] Blacklotis: your phones are all run in parallel
[01:41:21] Blacklotis: meaning that they all directly connect to the incomming phone line
[01:41:31] Blacklotis: so no one phone has priority over another
[01:41:45] Blacklotis: our alarm needs that priority
[01:42:04] Blacklotis: so it needs to be wired in series, directly after the phone line, and its output feeds the rest of the existing phones
[01:42:10] mu-tiger: so there's like, an over-ride signal?
[01:42:19] Blacklotis: thats one way to think of it
[01:42:29] Blacklotis: what happens more specifically is this:
[01:42:45] Blacklotis: 1)the panel disconnects the line
[01:42:46] BananaFish: presumably if the alarm system decides it's time for a regular phone-home, it defers the signal if the line is in use?
[01:43:06] Blacklotis: it just becomes a closed circuit yes
[01:43:22] Blacklotis: 2) it pauses to make sure the line is clear
[01:43:27] Blacklotis: 3) it picks up the phone
[01:43:33] Blacklotis: 4) dials out to the central station
[01:43:38] BananaFish: ok, #2 was what I was asking about :-)
[01:43:41] Blacklotis: 5) transmits the information
[01:43:48] Blacklotis: ok
[01:43:52] Blacklotis: if your phone line is in use
[01:43:57] Blacklotis: you are behind the panel
[01:44:04] Blacklotis: when the panel wants to kick you off
[01:44:13] Blacklotis: it simply hangs up inside tha panel
[01:44:18] Blacklotis: so it is as if you hung up the phone
[01:44:23] Jamrun9: so your phone line goes    outside connection --> alarm --> your phones?
[01:44:26] BananaFish: sure, but am I right in assuming that it wouldn't do that except for an actual alarm signal?
[01:44:27] Blacklotis: yes
[01:44:35] Blacklotis: its not supposed to yes
[01:44:41] Blacklotis: sorry I think I misunderstood the question
[01:45:03] Blacklotis: normally it just ignores everything
[01:45:05] Jamrun9: so each time i pick up the phone, i'm calling THROUGH my alarm?
[01:45:07] Blacklotis: and lets you talk as per normal
[01:45:11] BananaFish: IIRC, when someone is calling you, it's impossible to make an outgoing call
[01:45:12] Blacklotis: yes in fact you are
[01:45:25] Blacklotis: this is true
[01:45:32] Blacklotis: you can test that as well
[01:45:39] mu-tiger: wait
[01:45:41] BananaFish: so by keeping the line ringing I can stop the alarm being raised?
[01:45:44] Blacklotis: pick up your phone and call someone, then try to dial while on the line
[01:45:54] BananaFish: that's not what I meant
[01:46:06] BananaFish: when someone is calling *you*, you can't make an outgoing call
[01:46:07] mu-tiger: so, if a surge or something hits the alarm panal, it messes up your phone?
[01:46:21] BananaFish: unless perhaps you pick up, hang up, and dial before they redial
[01:46:26] Blacklotis: ok, one at a time. . .Ill take Banana First
[01:46:44] BananaFish: could you DOS the alarm system's connection by calling the line's number from a cellphone
[01:47:04] Blacklotis: no, because even when your phone is ringing, its making a connection
[01:47:23] Blacklotis: in actuality its been taken care of, im trying to provide a general example as to how it works
[01:47:33] mu-tiger: i see what you mean
[01:47:35] Blacklotis: specifically there is more involved
[01:47:53] mu-tiger: that's why sometimes, if you pick up the phone at just the right moment, before it rings, and someone is calling in
[01:47:58] mu-tiger: you are connected
[01:48:04] Blacklotis: even before it rang yes
[01:48:24] Blacklotis: alright, does that answer your surge question mu?
[01:48:26] mu-tiger: presumably cus sound is slower than electric current
[01:48:34] mu-tiger: sort of, yes
[01:48:40] Blacklotis: honestly I couldnt give you an exact answer on that one
[01:48:55] Blacklotis: but that is in fact how it works
[01:48:57] Blacklotis: welcome :)
[01:48:58] mu-tiger: alright
[01:48:59] dDevil: Thanks..
[01:49:00] mu-tiger: i get it
[01:49:02] mu-tiger: thank you
[01:49:03] Jamrun9: what if i yanked the battery from my alarm system, and my power went out?
[01:49:05] Blacklotis: sure thing
[01:49:17] Blacklotis: let me finish phones and ill get to power :)
[01:49:25] mu-tiger: if there was a power failure, no signal could be transmitted
[01:49:31] mu-tiger: oops*
[01:49:32] Blacklotis: haha
[01:49:45] Blacklotis: now, we have determined how a phone line is run
[01:49:56] Blacklotis: so how do we prevent tampering?
[01:50:06] Blacklotis: a supervised loop makes no sence
[01:50:16] Blacklotis: because if you cut the phone line thenthe panel has no phone to dial on
[01:50:21] mu-tiger: lock your power supply
[01:50:30] Blacklotis: even then, the wire can be cut
[01:50:42] Blacklotis: and unfortunatly this is absolutally the failing point of any hardwired alarm
[01:50:45] mu-tiger: but the continuity is disrupted, sending a signal?
[01:50:57] Blacklotis: the phone line can be cut and effectly stop the panle from dialing
[01:51:01] Blacklotis: it will function properly
[01:51:04] Blacklotis: but cannot communicate
[01:51:05] mu-tiger: xD
[01:51:08] Blacklotis: now
[01:51:11] Blacklotis: before you get any ideas
[01:51:14] Blacklotis: there are fixes
[01:51:17] mu-tiger: lol
[01:51:23] mu-tiger: o:)
[01:51:30] Blacklotis: most usits have the capability for celluar or radio backup units
[01:51:43] mu-tiger: that's what i was thinking
[01:51:45] Blacklotis: which work just like a phone line, but through cell or radio
[01:51:52] Blacklotis: which are of course harder to stop
[01:52:02] mu-tiger: but they can be scrambled
[01:52:08] Blacklotis: indeed
[01:52:16] Blacklotis: kill the phones you kill the alarms communication
[01:52:23] Blacklotis: its that simple, unfortunate as it may be
[01:52:35] Blacklotis: ok, so any more phone questions?
[01:52:45] mu-tiger: but, what about new systems they advertise, that don't NEED phones?
[01:52:50] mu-tiger: how do those work?
[01:52:58] Blacklotis: any system that dials needs some sort of phone
[01:53:00] BananaFish: why not just incorporate some kind of modified cellphone
[01:53:07] Blacklotis: weather it be hardwires or a cell or a radio
[01:53:15] mu-tiger: so
[01:53:33] mu-tiger: if you modified an old 900 MHz cordless or a cell
[01:53:48] mu-tiger: presumably you could scramble the backup signal?
[01:54:10] Blacklotis: well I would consider that more of a phreaking question wouldnt you?
[01:54:33] Blacklotis: alright
[01:54:34] mu-tiger: well, i dunno; because if you scramble the signal, you have bypassed security
[01:54:49] Blacklotis: yes, but the means to scramble it fall under phreaking
[01:54:53] mu-tiger: true
[01:54:56] mu-tiger: sorry
[01:54:59] Blacklotis: no worries
[01:55:05] Blacklotis: ok, so on to power
[01:55:31] Blacklotis: the panel runs on DC, so a transformer is needed to convert from the 120 V AC that is commonly used in homes to whatever the panel needss
[01:55:49] Blacklotis: on systems I use its 12.5 V DC
[01:56:05] Blacklotis: now, it also has a backup battery
[01:56:17] Blacklotis: so if the power dies the battery can power the system
[01:56:25] Blacklotis: as for how long depends on the battery and the unit
[01:56:40] Blacklotis: so yes if you kill the power and wait long eough chances are you kill the system
[01:56:59] Blacklotis: any more power questions?
[01:57:13] mu-tiger: where is this battery located?
[01:57:24] Blacklotis: normally in the Can Next to the panel
[01:57:30] Blacklotis: let me calrify
[01:57:40] Blacklotis: I call a panel the CPU of the alarm
[01:57:42] Blacklotis: its in the Can
[01:57:49] mu-tiger: here's the thing; the panels are indoors
[01:57:50] Blacklotis: which is the metal casing housing the panel
[01:57:56] Blacklotis: indeed
[01:57:59] Blacklotis: usually in a closet
[01:58:30] Blacklotis: and the battery is next to the cpu in the can
[01:58:41] mu-tiger: so
[01:58:44] Blacklotis: the panels I use have roughly an 8 hour backup life
[01:58:50] mu-tiger: if you have to breach the signal to get IN
[01:58:55] mu-tiger: and the panel is indoors
[01:59:02] Blacklotis: its protected
[01:59:07] Blacklotis: also, something to note
[01:59:11] mu-tiger: the only hope is to scramble the signal or disrupt the power
[01:59:26] Blacklotis: if the panel looses power, it has the option of sending a signal to the monitoring station saying it lost power
[01:59:37] Blacklotis: which can be set by an installer
[01:59:43] Blacklotis: as on or off
[02:00:05] Blacklotis: ok, so any questions in general?
[02:00:12] Blacklotis: about anything covered thus far?
[02:00:18] mu-tiger: yes
[02:00:23] Blacklotis: shoot
[02:00:28] mu-tiger: yes i do have a question
[02:00:36] Blacklotis: go ahead
[02:00:49] mu-tiger: that leaves the only option as scrambling the signal sent to the monitering station, correct?
[02:00:56] Blacklotis: absolutally :)
[02:00:58] mu-tiger: only REALISTIC option
[02:01:02] mu-tiger: so
[02:01:10] Blacklotis: if they have a wireless unit
[02:01:10] mu-tiger: if not with a cell or cordless
[02:01:19] mu-tiger: like a computer?
[02:01:34] Blacklotis: im sorry?
[02:01:45] mu-tiger: wifi computer? and a kick ass antenna?
[02:01:56] Blacklotis: no, it actually uses a celllar network
[02:01:58] Riddick: She wants to know if you could use a computer to create the same affect as a cell phone or cordless.
[02:02:11] Blacklotis: personally I have no idea how to block a cell signal
[02:02:14] Blacklotis: I never tried 
[02:02:20] mu-tiger: alright; go on, pls
[02:02:27] Jamrun9: could you emulate an alarm signal?
[02:02:33] Jamrun9: on some sort of antenna?
[02:02:39] Jamrun9: flood the monitoring station?
[02:02:42] Blacklotis: I doubt it
[02:02:47] Blacklotis: also
[02:02:49] Blacklotis: consider this
[02:02:51] mu-tiger: i bet an old timey cb would scramble the signal
[02:02:58] Blacklotis: ADT the largetst monitoring station
[02:03:08] Blacklotis: probably has somewhere around 20,000,000 signals daily
[02:03:17] mu-tiger: all managed by computers
[02:03:17] Blacklotis: and they can handle it just fine
[02:03:20] Blacklotis: indeed
[02:03:31] Riddick: Blacklotis, May I ask a question?
[02:03:35] Blacklotis: no :)
[02:03:37] Blacklotis: yes of course
[02:03:53] Riddick: Where did you come across all this information in this lecture and will there be logs provided? I'm a little late.
[02:04:09] Blacklotis: well I install security systems for a living, so it is all personal experience
[02:04:15] Blacklotis: and yes there are logs
[02:04:16] mu-tiger: xD
[02:04:27] Riddick: Okay, Just checking, Thanks. I'm finished with questions.
[02:04:35] Blacklotis: alright
[02:04:47] Blacklotis: if no one has any more questions im going to go ahead and conclude the lecture
[02:04:57] mu-tiger: i bet, if you parked close enough with a cb radio and big antennas
[02:05:10] mu-tiger: it would REALLY mess with the transmission of the signal
[02:05:20] Blacklotis: I know its encrypted quite heavily
[02:05:23] Blacklotis: no idea how
[02:05:30] Blacklotis: but when I heard of someone blocking the signal
[02:05:37] Blacklotis: there was enough equipment to fill  a large van
[02:05:44] mu-tiger: hrm
[02:05:55] mu-tiger: so the older systems would be more vulnrable
[02:06:05] Blacklotis: well, if you can find one
[02:06:09] Blacklotis: they are constantly being updated
[02:06:17] mu-tiger: well, people get complacent
[02:06:23] mu-tiger: at least in my area
[02:06:26] Blacklotis: the only way to know is to examine the panel
[02:06:31] mu-tiger: right
[02:06:39] BananaFish: what about exploiting the way the alarm is deactivated?
[02:06:39] mu-tiger: which is self-defeating
[02:06:39] Blacklotis: and you have to know what you are looking at
[02:06:46] Blacklotis: how so?
[02:06:59] Blacklotis: well
[02:07:04] Blacklotis: let me explain that first
[02:07:40] Blacklotis: ok, now this is hard to explain as its quite differnet with each system
[02:07:57] Blacklotis: but as far as turning off alrams goes
[02:08:00] Blacklotis: there is normally a keypad
[02:08:08] Blacklotis: and a 4 digit number is stored inside the panel
[02:08:14] mu-tiger: or more
[02:08:17] BananaFish: and a grace period after the door sensor is triggered?
[02:08:20] Blacklotis: so inputting the code turns off the system
[02:08:30] Blacklotis: as far as meddling with that
[02:08:41] BananaFish: I'm thinking about deactiviating the monitoring rather than the alarm
[02:08:43] mu-tiger: IF you could get access
[02:09:01] BananaFish: from time to time, the building owner will need to get in without raising the alarm
[02:09:16] Blacklotis: they souldnt
[02:10:02] Blacklotis: now, if the building owner needs to get in without tripping his own alarm he is SOL unfortunatly
[02:10:14] BananaFish: I've seen alarm systems where a code needs to be entered within some time period after the front door sensor is tripped
[02:10:21] Blacklotis: correct
[02:10:31] BananaFish: ok, surely such system are vulnerable
[02:10:32] Blacklotis: an entry delay
[02:10:39] BananaFish: force the front door, walk up to the panel
[02:10:48] mu-tiger: usually only 30 seconds, tho?
[02:10:53] Blacklotis: usually
[02:10:54] Blacklotis: and its a good point
[02:10:55] dDevil: Yes, mines set for 30.
[02:10:56] BananaFish: you've now got physical access to the panel, and the alarms aren't sounding
[02:11:06] Blacklotis: ok, the keypad and panel are differnt
[02:11:10] Blacklotis: which is a big thing here
[02:11:23] Blacklotis: you would need to physically get into the panel, which is in a locked box
[02:11:29] Blacklotis: hidden somewhere
[02:11:33] Blacklotis: within that time period
[02:11:40] BananaFish: how well hidden is it really likely to be
[02:11:42] Blacklotis: to even think of bypassing the delay and deactivitating it
[02:11:52] Jamrun9: would destroying the panel work?
[02:12:02] Blacklotis: I usually stick them in the back of some closet in a bedroom
[02:12:05] Blacklotis: and yes it would actually
[02:12:07] BananaFish: so the delay, you take a sledgehammer to the panel while your accomplice cuts the power to the alarm
[02:12:27] mu-tiger: that's pretty iffy sounding, to me
[02:12:28] BananaFish: the panel doesn't phone home, and the alarm is triggered but can't sound
[02:12:30] Blacklotis: you dont need the hammer
[02:12:43] Blacklotis: if you cut all the wires and disconnect the battery it dies
[02:12:50] Blacklotis: all the phone wires
[02:12:58] Blacklotis: cut them and all power
[02:13:10] BananaFish: kill the panel and there's no "black box" style evidence later
[02:13:11] mu-tiger: phones first
[02:13:20] Blacklotis: which is where the security that the devices offers come into play
[02:13:23] Riddick: What if you cut all the cords going to the home?
[02:13:35] Blacklotis: that option of an enrty delay can also be taken out
[02:13:38] Blacklotis: its progammable
[02:13:42] BananaFish: true
[02:13:51] BananaFish: or you'd put the panel behind further sensors
[02:13:58] Blacklotis: which you can do
[02:14:00] BananaFish: which wouldn't allow the "grace period"
[02:14:06] Blacklotis: correct
[02:14:13] BananaFish: or just put the keypad outside
[02:14:23] mu-tiger: no one would do that
[02:14:24] Blacklotis: I dont do that for alot of reasons
[02:14:39] Blacklotis: the main one being that anyone can try to enter any code as many times as they like
[02:14:41] Blacklotis: with no penalty
[02:14:42] mu-tiger: ive seen panels in the kitchen
[02:14:54] Blacklotis: but its sill inside the sensors "range"
[02:14:56] BananaFish: we have keypads outside here
[02:15:02] mu-tiger: and i think i've seen like, remotes for the systems?
[02:15:05] BananaFish: I doubt you get as many goes as you like
[02:15:21] Blacklotis: well, thats probably something that is panel specific
[02:15:29] Blacklotis: the ones I install currently have unlimited guesses
[02:15:35] Blacklotis: but they are ALWAYS inside
[02:15:36] mu-tiger: =/
[02:15:43] Blacklotis: id assume that is something that is again programmable
[02:15:44] mu-tiger: that is not a good thing
[02:15:48] mu-tiger: unlimited guesses
[02:15:49] mu-tiger: yeah
[02:15:56] BananaFish: hmmm...
[02:16:02] BananaFish: with regards to unlimited guesses...
[02:16:19] Blacklotis: within the entry delay of course
[02:16:26] Blacklotis: after the time limit it goes off
[02:16:30] BananaFish: attach a device across the keypad's output to cycle through all 10^n combinations very quickly?
[02:16:42] Jamrun9: can't process that fast, can it?
[02:16:53] Blacklotis: well, to do that you have to know how the keypad communicates with the panel
[02:16:54] Jamrun9: my alarm doesn't like it when i try two combinations too quickly
[02:16:56] mu-tiger: i think phreaking is the best chance of breach
[02:16:58] Blacklotis: and yes
[02:17:00] Blacklotis: it cant work that fast
[02:17:02] BananaFish: I think the tendency these days is towards overkill in embedded processors
[02:17:11] mu-tiger: like, something similar to ah
[02:17:34] mu-tiger: whaddya call it, on payphones, when you search and find the tones?
[02:17:44] Blacklotis: id call it brute forcing
[02:17:52] mu-tiger: lol
[02:18:04] Blacklotis: but no its not possable to brute force all combinations that quickly
[02:18:15] mu-tiger: but
[02:18:22] mu-tiger: if you had access daily
[02:18:24] mu-tiger: like
[02:18:26] BananaFish: 4 digit code, 8086 in the panel - should work
[02:18:30] mu-tiger: a groundskeeper or a maid
[02:18:39] Blacklotis: then you have a code :)
[02:18:51] mu-tiger: not necessarily
[02:18:58] mu-tiger: but you would have chances to find it
[02:19:00] mu-tiger: ;)
[02:19:12] BananaFish: unless you *were* the maid
[02:19:18] Blacklotis: would you like to enter at least 4^10 codes by hand?
[02:19:34] mu-tiger: no, i meant with that thingamabob
[02:19:34] Blacklotis: and if the code is longer. . .
[02:19:40] Blacklotis: it cant be done that fast
[02:19:41] mu-tiger: i forget the term
[02:19:44] BananaFish: I think you'd end up being *given* the code
[02:19:44] Blacklotis: the panel wont acept it
[02:19:56] mu-tiger: not true, in my area
[02:20:02] mu-tiger: bible belters, son
[02:20:12] mu-tiger: they trust no one, cus they are not trustworthy ;)
[02:20:25] Blacklotis: well, there can be multiple codes programmed into most systems
[02:20:38] Blacklotis: so they can give the maid a code when they leave, delete it when the come home
[02:21:25] dDevil: So to set a new code, would the original code be needed to set it?
[02:21:26] Jamrun9: what about codes that fire off the alarm... like "gun to the head" codes?
[02:21:33] mu-tiger: dDevil: yes
[02:21:38] Blacklotis: a duress code
[02:21:44] Blacklotis: basically,  it turns off the alarm
[02:21:52] Blacklotis: but at the same time sends a silent signal
[02:21:57] Blacklotis: I have personal experience with this one
[02:22:04] Blacklotis: I accidentially used a durress code
[02:22:15] mu-tiger: oops!
[02:22:17] Blacklotis: had a helicopter and 5 police cars outside in under a minute
[02:22:21] mu-tiger: omg
[02:22:23] Riddick: :|
[02:22:25] dDevil: Fuck..
[02:22:27] Blacklotis: and no im not kidding about the timeframe
[02:22:27] Ch4r: haha
[02:22:40] Blacklotis: it was FAST!
[02:22:42] mu-tiger: hrm
[02:22:46] Riddick: The cops love you dude. :|
[02:22:52] Blacklotis: :)
[02:22:54] mu-tiger: as i said, some ppl get complacent
[02:23:06] BananaFish: btw, with regard to the maid thing, the solution's simple - the maid just cleans the keypad
[02:23:13] mu-tiger: i know this one dude who has the alarm, pays for monitering; and hasn't set it in years
[02:23:16] mu-tiger: =/
[02:23:24] BananaFish: and examines which keys have oily fingerprints on
[02:23:33] mu-tiger: with scotch tape
[02:23:35] mu-tiger: yes
[02:23:38] Blacklotis: well, there is a solution to that as well
[02:23:42] BananaFish: then just a matter of running through a few combinations
[02:23:47] Blacklotis: most keypads need more than just the code
[02:23:57] Blacklotis: I was going to get into this next lecture
[02:24:04] mu-tiger: an asterick or something?
[02:24:11] Blacklotis: maybe i should do a seperate lecture on fallacies?
[02:24:12] mu-tiger: alright
[02:24:19] mu-tiger: we've harrassed you enough
[02:24:22] Blacklotis: :)
[02:24:27] Riddick: brb guys
[02:24:29] Ch4r: lol
[02:24:36] Ch4r: so - it's over?
[02:24:37] Blacklotis: there will definatly be another lecture with much mroe specific details
[02:24:38] mu-tiger: sorry, i just find this topic immensly fascinating
[02:24:51] Blacklotis: and I should probably do one on fallacies for MU
[02:25:01] mu-tiger: and not cus i plan on breaching security <_<
[02:25:02] Blacklotis: yes I am going to go ahead and close now